Our journey through infertility, failed adoptions and now parenthood through the miracle of embryo adoption/donation.

Wednesday, July 11, 2012

EA still so foreign??

I am a member of a forum called Baby Center. They have a forum on there called the Debate Team. Why I read there I will never know, but I do. Today someone posted a question about whether you can be pro-life and pro-IVF. I was surprised, no shocked, at how little people really know about IVF and embryos. Some of the posts there stated:

*with IVF you have to destroy unused embryo
*there are just not enough families for all of the embryos
*and somewhere in there Octomom came up. Like she is a reputable source!
*some had no idea that you could even donate embryos

I am pro-life and pro-IVF and a Christian. Yes, you can be all three. However, I think that if you choose to do IVF you need to do so responsibly, knowing that there may be embryos left over and have a solid plan on what you will do with them. I posted on there to educate them on the fact that while yes, there are many, many, many embryos currently in storage most are going to be used by the genetic parents. And that there are more waiting families that embryos available for adoption/donation. And that just because someone has 6 embryos does not mean that all will survive the thaw or implant.

Do you find that people still don't understand EA? Or even IVF which has been around quite awhile? Do you try to educate them?


  1. We are very open with the fact that we are pregnant via EA and of all the people we've told, over 100 now, I could count on one hand the number that have heard of EA. Once explained, everyone is very supportive, but I am finding that I have to explain a lot. It's so sad that more people don't know about it yet, and we hope to do our part by educating those we know about this option.

  2. I must admit that until this process (and even now for me), I really had no idea what was involved in the fertility process. I think it's starting to become more "mainstream" specifically because Hollywood is using it in their movies. I am a Christian too and at first I thought I could never do IVF, but now I'm definitely changing my mind.

  3. Well...you know that I am also an EA mom....so yes...I do find that I have to explain this to people all the time. Luckily most the people I encounter don't have any moral issues with IVF per say...they just don't know all the details and how I could pretty much carry and give birth to an adopted child. i have to explain we adopted at the embryo level and how all that came about. Most people are fascinated and think it is totally cool. I have many people tell me they need to go tell another friend about this because they may be struggling with infertility. It is sometimes tiring...but I am happy to spread the word and educate people no just how wonderful EA is and that IVF is not imoral or wrong if done responsibly.

  4. IVF is bad, you stated why yourself "And that just because someone has 6 embryos does not mean that all will survive the thaw or implant."
    These babies are being created and a lot will most likely die. It also has not been around long enough for people to know the long term affects of freezing an embryo for months even years and then unthawing. What is that doing to their organs, ect.? Can it cause serious genetic problems when they have children. I don't think we really know yet. I think it is just so far from how God intended it to be. A baby being made in a lab and then donated if the parents decide they don't want the rest of their own flesh and blood. Sad very sad and NOT how God intended. There is this thing called adoption and thousands of foster children without homes! Just a thought!

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  6. Seriously??? "Unknown" do you have any idea about cryopreservation? There are no developed organs to even be harmed. And there are many babies that were embryos that had been frozen 10-15 years if not longer and they are healthy. As far as embryos dying in the process did you know that by just having sex you have the same risk? Did you know that every fertile woman has the potential to ovulate and fertilize the egg thereby creating an embryo that may not implant? Is that not wrong? God chooses which ones live or die regardless of where said embryos were created.

    As to the "just adopt" platitude I am assuming that you yourself have adopted. To tell an infertile couple that it is our place to adopt is, well, not your place. Why shouldn't fertile couples adopt as well? Isn't it irresponsible to have babies at all while there are still so many children out there waiting? Because adopting is just so easy and inexpensive and no adoption falls through or a foster child returned to abusive parents. I would love to live in a world of sunshine and roses but that is not the case.

    While I think that IVF is a personal decision and one that is not right for everyone I do not believe that there is a single verse of scripture that would say that it is wrong to do.

  7. I have been an infertile for a long time so I know what it's like, no I have not adopted. Not sure what your talking about with foster care. I meant the kids who are in foster homes who's parent's rights have been terminated. I know many many people who have adopted perfectly healthy kids 1 to 2 years old or younger. Adoption from foster care cost nothing at all. Also if you do foster care and get a baby, the courts are shorting the time the parents have all the time. It's about 6 months where I live, and 80% of the time they don't go back home. We don't know what affect if could have on their organ's or anything when they are older, there just hasn't been studies on it. It is not how God intended. It is very clear God is the one who opens and closes the womb. People just don't like that maybe his will is for them to adopt or not have a child so they take matters into their own hands. There is a change of embryos not attaching naturally but that would be up to God to fertilize that egg in the first place. It's not the same as creating a bunch in a lab. Comparing those two things does not work. Not everyone donates their embryos, a lot of people discard them, and it is true a lot do not survive the unthaw or transplant. So many babies are dieing, just to get a chance to have one. That is not right, people just don't want to admit it. There aren't always exact verses for things, you go off of principals in the Bible. There is no verse that says thou shalt not smoke but you can go off principals in the Bible that talk about harming your body, therefore it is a sin to smoke. There is a verse that says thou shalt not kill and that would apply to IVF big time! I know you have to defend it to make yourself feel okay with doing it, but it is not right and not how God intended at all. It's not my place to tell others what to do, it's God's, and somebody has to stand up for what's right. No mater how you try to justify it, it is not natural and not how God designed for us to have children. It is a money making industry, because those doctors know you will do anything to have a baby, and people sure do anything!

  8. By the way I do think fertile couples should open their hearts to adopt waiting children as well. It's called compassion and caring for the fatherless. Something the Bile doesn't ask us to do but commands us to!

  9. Wow, where to start, where to start......
    First of all, unknown, have some guts and put your real name. Secondly, there are WAY more waiting families to adopt children than there are children who need the families. Apparently, you haven't even researched adoption. And the cost is highly prohibitive. Most modest families can't afford the fees. Even international adoption is changing- wait times of up to 4 years, again because there are do many couples wanting children. You said you haven't adopted, but yet you shame others for not doing so?
    Thirdly, why is it that you feel that only infertiles are Biblically mandated to be fathers to the fatherless? Yes, it fills a need for the infertile couple, but if you take that spiritual mandate literally, why aren't you campaigning for all Christian couples to adopt instead of just the infertile ones? And again, why haven't you adopted??
    Fourth, do you not know that 1 in 4 pregnancies spontaneously aborts? So, couples having unprotected sex are killing babies all the time!!! Could it be instead that God predestines some to walk on earth and others not? (we implanted 3 adopted embryos and 1 survived- we rejoiced that the other 2 got to live in glory without ever living in this sinful world.)
    We have an amazing story of our little girl who God chose to live in our family. He providentially worked out the details of her embryo adoption- she was frozen for 10 years- and she's such an information to our church family. I am also pregnant with an adopted baby of Indian heritage. What a perfect reflection of God's love for his children as we're adopted as co-heirs with Christ!!!

    I understand if you feel that IVF is not for you, God leads people in different directions. But to declare it sinful for other believers is irresponsible.

    (ps - Jess, I think I would never get anything accomplished ever if I joined that board. I'll stick to my BBs, EA and CD boards... Lol)

  10. I haven't adopted yet because I am going through taking classes and getting my licence to adopt through foster care. My friend just got a 8 week old baby through foster care and is adopting him now. I have researched adoption very very much. There is no 4 year wait and no cost at all to adopt through foster care. Yes the Bible commands us to care for the fatherless also the widows, and the desolate. Like I said I understand you people have to make excuses to make yourselves feel better about it, but there is no way around it, it is unnatural and not how God intended! Even if adoption was a lot harder to do, that still wouldn't justify making babies in labs, and taking maters into our own hands. Our world also thinks it's responsible to abort babies too so I'm not surprised IVF is so accepted. Not sure how saying it is sinful is irresponsible! Maybe it will make people think about what they are doing. I know you will go on and on and use the adoption is hard excuse, but that doesn't justify it. My name is Windy, not sure what that has to do with anything. I don't put my last name or much info on here because there are so many weirdo on the internet.

  11. O Windy (Unknown), you seem to be forgetting a major part of the Bible: Compassion. Dont you realise that you can quote any part of the Bible for an argument and there are equal parts to support other sides? If IVF isn't for you that's fine. And of course you're entitled to your own opinion but to force it down other's throats is wrong. Having been down Adoption, IVF, Fostering and Ea routes I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I feel strongly the Good Lord created all of these avenues for us all. To say ivf is far from what God intended says 2 things to me, 1) You do not know what God intended and with the greatest of respect it shows great arrogance to suggest you do. 2) If science and labs thought the way you do we would have no heart/kidney/lung transplants, no help for cancer sufferers, we cannot say science is right for curing illness but wrong for reproduction! If we carried your thinking to the ultimate conclusion there would be no medical help for anyone who needed it.

    Also, having successfully adopted from Ethiopia from our home country of Ireland let me tell you, it is a long, arduous task, we waited 6 and a half years for our beautiful little boy and had gruelling sessions with social workers, doctors, and specialists in that period. This is the norm in Ireland and it should be rigerous (but not so long!) While you have every right to your opinion, you should know that if adoption is as rigorous where you are then you may need to look to your compassionate side and tone down your zealous side. Balance is important, teaching your children tolerance is important, all of this is what they look into.

    We all make choices, God gave us free will. Now naturally I'm not talking about anything insane like hurting people etc but we must follow our hearts, after all He gave them to us, so to say others are sinning by using medical technology He gave us via superb scientific brains, is, in my opinion, just plain wrong. Most of us who have tried ivf, ea etc, dont make excuses to make ourselves feel better, we explain how things are to help others. If you cannot open your heart a little more, whilst holding on to your own opinion then you are not following His golden rule: treat others as you would be treated. Of course your opinion may differ, you'll get no argument from me on that score, but you dont have a moral high ground, what you do in this area of searching for your child is no better than anyone else. It feels very much like the old chestnut of "I have right on my side therefore I can say anything and you have no real argument against it". That's a shame and I'm sure you're a bright, thoughtful, decent lady, and I say this from a place of acceptance and love, you do not have the definitive answer to what's right and what isn't. There were zealots and those who proselytised back in Jesus' time, I'm pretty sure He wasn't a great fan of the way they conducted themselves. He preaches love, acceptance, responsiblity, and compassion, not hell fire and brimstone. We have responsibilities, we must be mindful of how we do things, but we must also accept His gifts, and science is one of His gifts. I am a happy Irish Christian, and while it's unlikely I'll change your mind about your stance, I do hope you take some points and ponder on them, however, that's not my goal, my goal is to say, respectfully,it is important to be compassionate and open to people's choices, even if they are not our own.

  12. Follow our hearts lets see what the Bible says about that-
    Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    We are to follow what God says because we are just sinners. Chapter and verse where Jesus preached acceptance of evil or wicked things or at all? He did call some people vipers, People did not hate Jesus because he went around preaching consider the lilies. He was a strong preacher and was against sin like God is. I love all people not their sin. God loves everyone, but not everything everyone does. We should not just accept anything. There is no way around it, making a bunch of babies in labs and freezing them and sending them to that person then this, is not natural or how God designed for us to have children. It has caused so many babies to die and for wicked people like sodomites to have children. God is NOT for that! God is all powerful and all knowing he could give you a baby if he wanted to, he is the opener and the closer of the womb the Bible says. It is creeping even watching an IVF video where the needle is inserted. So weird and unnatural. Sorry your argument doesn't make sense, there is no way around it. Make up as many excuses as you want, It is wrong. I know you have to make up these excuses to ease your conscience though.

  13. By the way lung transplant and surgery's like that is not the same at all! It does not make a bunch of babies with a lot of them having a big chance of not making it. Making embryos artificially, trying to play God in creating life is not the same at all! You are comparing apples to oranges there.

  14. Think Jesus wasn't fire and brimstone read this

    Not sure how saying making a bunch of embryos artificially is fire and brimstone lol! You just don't like it.
    I do see my comments getting deleted, not good for peoples conscience I guess.

  15. Windy, while I completely disagree with you I have no reason to delete your comments. Unlike you, I can respect another person's opinion even if I disagree. I am not in the habit of deleting a comment just because I don't care for it, but I will if someone is rude, disrespectful, contains vulgarity, or other such offenses.

    As to what the Bible says about IVF there is no clear answer to that. Yes, there are principles for many subjects but IVF is not one. God has the power over LIFE and DEATH. To say that we cannot use medicine to help us with life means that we should not use medicine to avoid death. There is nothing "artificial" about the sperm and egg used during IVF, just the means in which they are acquired. If science crosses the line and uses artificial eggs, sperm or embryos then yes, we would be crossing a line. All IVF does is allow a way for egg and sperm to meet.

    Had there been IVF in Bible days I am sure that Rachel, Leah and Sarah would have used it. As it is Rachel and Leah used surrogates yet we hear nothing about that from God. There was no reprimand. He even proceeded to open Rachel's womb at one point after this. We really do not know exactly how God felt about them using a surrogate but considering He was silent about it we can conclude that this is a decision we each have to make for ourselves.

    However, I do not believe that IVF was God's original intent. But neither was adoption. In a perfect world we would have no sin and no illness therefore no infertility and no children with bad parents. But infertility and sinners do exist and IVF and adoption are a solution to those problems.

    In no way do I need to defend myself to make me feel better about my decisions. My husband and I prayed long and hard before each step we took as well as sought godly counsel. We know that we followed His will and He blessed us for that.

  16. Bravo Jess!

    Oh Windy! It would seem, as I thought, so much of what was said both by others here and by myself has gone unread by your heart. I'm sorry that's the case but it is what it is. I sincerely hope that if/when you have children you are able to open your heart more and above all teach tolerance and balance to them.

    You choose to take what you want from my post and interpret it your way, and of course you're entitled to do that. I thought I was pretty clear but perhaps you misunderstood. Not for one moment was I suggesting Jesus talked about baby making ("in labs") as fire and brimstone. What I meant is that he preached tolerance and love, I feel perhaps the old testament suits your argument better so you are very comfortable there predominantly. He doesn't tolerate the wrong doing of others, but you are so very wrong if you feel those who use IVF would be judged harshly.

    However, you are where you are, and you're unlikely to change. But you're misled if you feel you have some sort of moral right on your side. Jess is correct, she doesn't have to defend herself, neither do any of us, we are purely trying to explain and help others understand. But there are none so deaf as those who will not hear.

    Good luck with your journey, but dear, do try and learn to tolerate and respect others. Again, if your social workers and adoption professionals delve into your intolerance you may find it a little more difficult (as it should be) than you think.

    We are all on a learning curve in this life, that's part of our reason to be here. So while you may feel it's ok to disrespectfully point the finger and touch the corners of verbally abusing people because it's clearly important for you to be "right", it's a lesson that may stand you in good stead to use the words He has given you, the way He intended, kindly and with respect.

    I dont have to agree with your argument, but I respect your right to hold it. What is so wrong, though, is that you choose to put your point across in such a dogmatic and frankly unChristian way.

  17. Wow you people are still going on about this! I skimmed though your comment's, I'm sorry you are so mixed up. I hope one day you will realize it is not ok to take matters into your own hands when it comes to children. As far as saying people in the Bible would have used IVF HA! That is sad, you must not know that story very well. It was wrong for them to take maters into their own hands and use a surrogate. You also said there was no reprimand so it must be ok and then said we don't know how God feels about it. You aren't making sense. God also didn't punish men for having many wife's in the Bible, doesn't mean it was right. That is a poor excuse. There was a reprimand though, read on what happens when Abraham's wife decides to take maters into her own hands. Read what happens to the child and the "surrogate" as you claim they are. Really it is not a Surrogate so you are not proving anything. They did not have IVF in Bible times so it was the child of the husband and the servant NOT the married couples. They did not put a embryo form the husband and wife into the servant so no she was NOT a surrogate. It is called adultery! The man had a baby with another women. It was clear that was the wrong thing to do! How could you possible say it was ok for Abraham to have intimacy with someone that was not his wife! They tried to go ahead of God and make it happen and God made it clear that was a mistake! As far as you respecting my opinion and not deleting my comments you have deleted them before on other post and they were nothing but my opinion too, not any different than yours, so that is fake. I don't want to hear people defend wickedness anymore. IVF is wicked and responsible for many many deaths, how sad. I guess people don't care about that as long as they get a baby. How sick our world is today that they think making babies in labs by artificial means is okay. yuck!

  18. Also my social worker is against IVF and also thinks it's sick, we have talked about it a lot. Wait till I tell her someone suggested it would be harder for me to adopt because I think that! I have not run into anyone who think that I cannot have the opinion that IVF is wrong. Why can I not state how I think it is wrong but people who think it is right can sure state their opinion? Every one preaches "tolerance" until it is something that offends them lol! We have fee speech in America and that shouldn't make it harder for me to get children. I can't believe someone would say that!

  19. I don't see how my way is so dogmatic and Jess doing a whole post on it and how her comments aren't lol. Wait it's because you agree with it, but not mine so mine are dogmatic. I see.

  20. O Windy, it's not that you dont agree with ivf that i say you may find it harder to adopt, if you read it that way it's probably because as you say, you skimmed through the comments! It's because you are so intolerant that I say that. Your belief system and the way you portray it should and likely will have an impact on your home study etc. You will be responsible for another person's life, for their education. If you condemn those who offend you with their lifestyle then it shows an emotional immaturity and an inability to put yourself in someone else's shoes. It doesn't actually show righteousness.

    You must remember your future child could come from a home who's values you disagree with. You would do severe damage to that child if you cant understand and explain things in a reasoned, mature and compassionate way. That is something that is important throughout life and throughout many issues, not just ivf. And from your posts it's pretty clear that your stance on life is pretty rigid. You owe it to any child to be compassionate and open hearted, tolerant and balanced as you lead him/her through the many issues that will face the child.

    I'm so sorry you find yourself unable to be compassionate for others. I'm so sorry that you cant see suffering and try to understand and help. And I wish you luck with your journey but I really dont feel engaging with any more of your posts to be something I choose to do because you seem unwilling or unable to show tolerance. So while you may rant away, let me wish you love and light and leave it at that. My late Mother, God Rest her, always said if you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all, so that's as ever, excellent advice.

    Jess, your site is beautiful, and I enjoy it very much. 'Will avoid debate in future with those who dont feel the need to be tolerant, as I'm pretty sure that isn't the purpose of your beautiful blog. 'Hope to comment rather than debate in future! Or at least have a reasoned one!


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  22. Windy, while you are entitled to your OPINION please no longer post it here. Your hate and contempt have no place on a Christian blog and will be deleted from here on out. If you would like to debate it further feel free to put it on your own blog.


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